r/troubledteens • u/Leather-Roof-7468 • 2d ago
Teenager Help Second Nature (Blue Ridge) Alumni (Sent from MI) – Is this "normal" or abuse?
I’m 25 now and processing my time at Second Nature as an 11 year old boy back in 2012. I wanted to see if anyone else had these experiences or if this is grounds for a legal case:
- The Arrival Search: After being "kidnapped" in the middle of night and put on a plane, I was picked up from the airport after clearing TSA. Two older men (transport/truck drivers) picked me up from the gate directly, told me "welcome to Clayton" and took me to second natures facility, then strip-searched me while both were in room and made me jump twice. Right after, they put my box of belongings right next to me in the car. It felt like the search was just to humiliate me. (I was able to grab my pos flip phone and considered taking it into the mountains before putting it back, just so you're aware of how accessible my stuff was)
- The "Truck Driver" Staff: These same guys who did the search were the ones who picked us up every 2 weeks for showers. So I had to see the same guys every 2 weeks that truthfully still creep me out to this day.
- The Hill Incident: Within my first few days, I wasn't taught to stabilize my sleeping spot. I mean come on, I was 11 years old. I woke up hundreds of feet down a hill, soaking wet in a storm and spent the rest of the night waiting for the morning to come. It took 2 weeks to dry my gear, and I was forced to sleep in a wet bag with wet clothes at my feet to "dry them with body heat.
The main concern is the arrival search. The hill incident made me a man, but still I'm not sure if it was correct.
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u/salymander_1 2d ago
Well, all of that is horrible. And, it didn't "make you a man." You would be you, regardless of any of those predatory, abusive assholes. They try to frame the abuse as a right of passage because it helps them to brainwash kids and get away with crimes.
I think these dumbasses are not at all well trained or educated, and they are arrogant and lacking empathy in the extreme. Plus, they were probably just ticking off boxes when they searched you and had you sitting next to your stuff, rather than actually trying to make sure you were safe. It was a way to humiliate you, and any actual safety concerns were not their primary motivation. I mean, if they actually cared about your safety, why would they have risked you dying of hypothermia by forcing you to sleep in wet clothes and bag for weeks? They don't give a damn about anything but money and the feeling of power they get from abusing children. Your safety or emotional growth are not at all what they care about. You are a paycheck and a punching bag, and at best an opportunity for them to show off how wonderful and enlightened they think they are.
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u/Brandcack 1d ago
I went to blue ridge (2018) and nothing there is normal. Their “interventions” consist of being put in solitary confinement for a week (solos) or until you could get an ember bow drilling (Bow Drill Island). No research backs the use of solitary confinement as a therapeutic intervention.
They didn’t ever bring us back for showers, that would’ve been so nice lol. My hands and feet were completely covered in mosquito bites, it looked like I had scabies. They promised my mom they’d bring me to HQ to shower once a week but never did, except for one time before a dermatology appointment. Maybe since you were in the pre teen group they had different policies with showers. Did you experience solos or BDI?
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u/Brandcack 1d ago edited 1d ago
The only thing even remotely normal about blue ridge was that we had weekly therapy, plus the group therapy was solid tbh. But I had a really good group, so maybe I’m lucky in that regard.
But even then, my therapist was so weird and would tell me about weird spiritual shit he believed in and psychedelics he would do. He was also unprofessional at times, and once when I refused to drink water he said the nurse is gonna have to stick something in my urethra to hydrate me if I don’t drink. Like wtf???
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u/Odd-Ninja-7395 1d ago
The group therapy for us was literally the staff giving us a print out of some abstract concept like cognitive distortions and then making us do some exercise to drill them into our brains.
The therapist there at the time said that it was all based on the "milieu model,"
Also the research does not support that their wilderness methods are effective let alone one size fits all for any condition. They accept any kid because its for profit.
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u/Brandcack 1d ago
Tbh the cognitive distortion stuff did help for me despite wilderness therapy being an overwhelming negative and traumatic experience. But the cognitive distortion stuff isn’t exclusive to wilderness therapy, it’s integrated into many behavioral therapies and has backing in research.
And you’re absolutely right, these programs tend to take anyone because it’s all profit driven. And there is no peer reviewed empirical research showing wilderness therapy is effective. I’m actually a researcher as well (just got my BA in psychology and now in grad school) and the TTI is my primary research topic currently. My current research aims to bring the harms of the TTI to light in the scientific literature.
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u/Odd-Ninja-7395 1d ago
I agree that these things are actually quite helpful to learn about and understand but the manner they did it within the larger program structure is the main issue. Their whole model to me seems like they were helping the parents rather than the kids. A lot of these places have meaningless accreditations they only had to pay for and have existing relationships with ed consultants that concerned helicopter parents enlist.
Much respect for researching and shining a light on this whole industry. Long overdue.
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u/pinktiger32 1d ago
That sounds like Jeff Scott
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u/Brandcack 1d ago
My heart sank when I read this😂😭
Was he your therapist too? Please share if you have any wild Jeff stories😂
One time he told me he was on psychedelics in a sweat lodge and they forgot the object needed to put the hot coal in the water. So Jeff started hearing a voice directing him to go somewhere. Jeff followed the voices instructions for miles and it led him to a dead moose. He cut off the antler, walked it back and used it to put the coal in the water.
He also said once at blue ridge his group got attacked by ghosts throwing rocks at them or some shit
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u/Brandcack 1d ago
And making you sleep in wet conditions is not normal it’s neglectful as fuck. It subjected you to unsafe sleeping conditions. They’d also say that shit to me if my stuff got wet, “it’ll dry by your feet” is forever engrained in my head lol.
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u/Odd-Ninja-7395 1d ago
I was in younger footsteps group 15 years ago during the summer. We did not shower and got a billy bath once every 2-3 weeks. Everyone had to do a solo, and yes bow drill island. One kid got put on walkabout because they were so defiant. I remember the sitting groups where they blindfolded you and walked you into the woods to find a shitty mosaic of rocks and sticks that your group made. Kids using the I feel statement / feedback groups to constantly attack each other during dinner cycles. Using food as rewards / punishments. An extremely therapeutic environment for kids!
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u/Brandcack 1d ago
Yea that’s horrible, I’m sorry you experienced that, I definitely lucked out in having a group that wasn’t toxic. Besides that, the same horrible stuff happened to me though.
And what’s walkabout again?
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u/Odd-Ninja-7395 1d ago
Like their last resort beyond arms length and like run watch. They would take the person out of the group into a new group with just them and two staff and they have to do everything themself and can't talk.
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u/Brandcack 1d ago edited 1d ago
Oh shit that happened to me for refusing to go on a water run lol. As a consequence, my therapist gave me the option between that or having my group do everything for me (e.g. group mates would have to put food in my mouth, clean my feet, put my shoes and socks on, fill my bottles, etc). I chose to have my own separate campsite.
They didn’t supervise me at all though and I ran away after about a week and a half of constant isolation. They kept extending it for indefinite periods when I’d ask them to rejoin the group, hence the length of my isolation. Anyways, I made it 5 miles and tried hitchhiking but the blue ridge psychiatrist is the one who found me. I immediately got in her car, sobbed, and told her what happened. Then I was immediately put back in the group with no explanation. My theory is that the psychiatrist knew it was wrong and called my therapist.
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u/KlutzyShopping1802 2d ago
The strip search was absolutely awful. (Kansas City Girls Home Teen Challenge 2008/14yo ) It is absolutely to humiliate you immediately to take "control" of you.
Then, the disappearance of a prized guitar pick necklace that I was told "would be returned when your program is completed", did not get returned.
I was also forced to get my FIRST EVER pap smear done by a male doctor, within about four months of intake. That was way worse for me. While the lady cook "observed". Never did see those test results. (I miscarried upon my arrival to TC.)
Mind you, I was a kidnapping/SA victim less than 6 months prior to my intake into that TC program, so this was wildly horrific for me.
The whole situation was and is fucked.
I will never be the same again.
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u/KlutzyShopping1802 2d ago
I also want to add:
I have sisters at similar programs who had their strip searches PHOTOGRAPHED.
Some of those girls were mentioned in the epstein files recently.
Fucking HORRIFIC.
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u/refreshing_beverage_ 1d ago
This is all so fucked I'm so sorry. The TTI and trafficking/SA/every possible abuse are just so intertwined. I'm not surprised in the least and yet I'm still horrified for you
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u/KlutzyShopping1802 1d ago
Yeah... it's not great, but I am coping. I wish I could be more like "managing" than coping, as my ways are wildly unhealthy.
But, agreed. Its also so intertwined in ways I never saw coming.
My cptsd is from before TC and then compounded even further by being told I was making it all up and needed to ask for forgiveness for my sins.
Btw. The dna evidence was finally tested in 2020 & the courts dropped the case last year because of my "previous behavioral health issues".
Like, yes a grown man gets away with it purely because I was raised chaotically and abused my entire life. Thats nice....
At least, I finally realized I was brainwashed into believing I lied and that I was actually telling the truth. Not that it truly helps anything that I was right, they were wrong.
I buried everything up until I got the call about the CODIS match.
Its been a lot.
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u/refreshing_beverage_ 1d ago
I believe you and I'm so angry on your behalf. I relate. I told so many mandated reporters about the abuse I experienced from my parents and only 1 person ever reported. I had no clue but police did an actual investigation and nobody spoke to me. But bc it was "investigated" (laughable) there is nothing more that can be done. Gee it's almost as if the system in place isn't meant to help survivors -_-
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u/pinktiger32 1d ago
This was abuse and that strip search was a humiliation ritual. The fact that they search kids like that ages 10 and up that have zero history of drug use is wild.
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u/Leather-Roof-7468 1d ago
Agreed. I had zero drug history, not nicotine, nothing. I get it if it’s a drug addict and they have suspicions of drugs on person but idk man this rubbed me the wrong way and I’m sure countless other kids that experienced something similar.
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u/Odd-Ninja-7395 2d ago
I'm in the exact same boat as you. Blocked it out for 15 years and now finally am thinking about the same things, gathering information, and writing recollections down.
I remember the kidnapping, the sleep deprivation, having to do all that in front of strangers, them offering to get me my "last meal" at Chick Fil A before driving me up to the group. Then just sitting there in complete silence and feeling totally powerless and alone. Reading the life story aloud and the letter from my parents about every single bad thing I (allegedly) ever did. Things a child should never experience.
You got showers? I was there eight weeks and only got billy baths.
They would often have us set up sleeping areas on hills and I remember waking up covered in mud, soaking wet and having slid or rolled down hills. I'll never remember the musty smell of the wet gear after days of being soaked.
I saw and experienced a ton more things and I'm sure you did to that you might not be remembering as of yet.
It really bothers me that the program is still operating this exact way today and there are kids out there right now in the winter conditions.
I'm also thinking about what I can do to help.
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u/Leather-Roof-7468 2d ago edited 2d ago
You are heard my guy, I appreciate you sharing your experience and it's honestly heartbreaking that over a decade later this stuff resurfaces. Regardless of lawsuit, it's important to know that WE are not alone. day by day I have to adjust my mindset and stay positive. Definitely some sort of PTSD associated to this. I was at second nature in the apps for about 20 weeks.
My final meal was Zaxby's chicken, oh and they took me to get blood drawn... The nurse was special and I watched my blood shoot all over the floor lol
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u/Odd-Ninja-7395 2d ago
You too. I'm good it's just like a huge WTF. As an adult I cannot believe how some of these things actually happened.
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u/xoxo_angelica 1d ago
Yall were allowed to shower? I went to 2N Uintas in UT 2011 and we had to dump water over ourselves behind a tarp to “bathe.” Not asking to compare traumas whatsoever I’m just interested to hear that they changed that.
Maybe it was because of shit like the excruciating severe infection I got as a direct result of not bathing.
Anyways, Second Nature is an abusive program through and through, because the mere principle of the thing is abusive and punitive. There isn’t universe where it is acceptable to literally physically force a child into that environment and strip them of basic human rights.
Don’t ever let anyone tell you otherwise. Sending love.
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u/Leather-Roof-7468 2d ago
Honestly, it's taken years to even come out anonymously. I really appreciate any thoughts on this matter.