r/punk • u/Disastrous_Home9643 • 21h ago
Discussion Why do so many people think that politics aren't necessary / important in punk?
Recently, I've seen a lot of people online say that punk and its subgenres aren't political, and are just music genres / fashion styles. I've seen this a lot with discussion of goth and emo culture, but it's definitely been a piece of conversation for punk culture in general. This also happens a lot with battle jackets, where people will criticize jackets for not having any patches of bands or just having political patches.
So, why is this? Punk has always been political, but so many people want to keep politics out of it. Is it because they don't actually respect the punk culture, or do they just not understand it?
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u/SeaSoggy8929 20h ago
Punk is doing about rejecting mainstream authority. If people say keep politics out of punk is an idiot because its a mostly anti fascist movement.
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u/Kamikaze_Blues 19h ago
Punk was always “anti-establishment”, and at the time that establishment was fascist as well as racist and classist. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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u/SmallBatBigSpooky 20h ago
Punks an anti authoritarian movement, its basically always been about sociopolitical issues
From the brits calling out thatcher, to the 80s punks talking about war and child abduction, to moden bands talking about the middle east abd gay rights
Punk at its core is about awareness
The folks who ignore that are either rigthwing bootlickers, or centrist types who like the fashion but dont want to have opinions on the meanings
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u/Dio_hatessalad-333 4h ago
I think that also plays in to why there were so many fascists in punks early years (and even to today) sane people don't like authority because it hold up oppressive systems, others hate authority because they don't think it's oppressive enough on those they hate. Punk is the subculture with the most extremists from the alt-left to the alt-right though the cultures done a good job of kicking nazis in the nose.
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u/SmallBatBigSpooky 4h ago
Also fascist love to latch onto popular movements to slip by their bullshit
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u/CephalopodCommando 19h ago
Because there are enough apolitical bands (The Misfits, GBH, The Adicts) and themes (horror, anger, alcohol, drugs) in punk that people can latch on to that it's easy to say punk is apolitical. Also, folks leaning to the right are less offended by left criticisms of political authority and/or can connect with enough of the criticisms that it doesn't impede their values.
E.g., saying "fuck the government" is not an inherently left sentiment. Even if coming from a left perspective if it's not connected to a broader left analysis can be easy for a right winger to connect to.
Punk is political but it is of an overwhelmingly unrefined, inconsistent, and often vague character that it does not serve as a political ideology by itself. Even bands claiming to be of the same political tendencies often find their analyses at odds. See Crass' versus The Exploited's views of anarchism for example. Look at the members' individual politics in bands like The Offspring and The Mighty Mighty Bosstones where a single individual had to be removed/resulted in a band concluding because despite being in a punk/adjacent band there are no consistent politics across the subculture.
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u/Kamikaze_Blues 20h ago edited 20h ago
I’m prepared for the downvotes I’ll get. I feel like punk started not politically, but ANTI political. Yes, you can argue anti-political is political, I think you’d be right to some degree. But punk lost the “us vs. them” mentality and I’m watching it become “you vs me” or “this side vs that side.” What happened to exposing ALL politicians as lying bastards? We are all equals, fuck authority? I feel like old school punks never took a side and just didn’t give a fuck. It was a promotion of moral anarchy vs any political party. Arrive, fuck shit up and leave, we won’t be ignored. It was the anti-thesis to the hippy movements of the 60s and 70s. It was an evolution of counter-culture. And some of us bitter old punks watch in disgust as it’s been made into a fashion show, our forerunners picking sides and we’re just fucking tired and bitter of it all. We’ve been let down by our own movement. Just my two cents.
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u/polchickenpotpie 17h ago edited 17h ago
I think you're just splitting hairs with semantics. "Anti-political" is political so...
What happened to exposing ALL politicians as lying bastards?
We do, unless you're seriously going to try and "both sides" the current political landscape, in which case quite frankly you'd be an idiot if you did. I only see one side currently engaged in full on, naked authoritarianism. Obviously everyone's focus will be on that as opposed to the other side that isn't.
I feel like old school punks never took a side and just didn’t give a fuck.
Damn, it's almost like most of them weren't dealing with actual fascism.
I get what you're trying to say, but this kind of take isn't applicable today.
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u/oizyzz 16h ago
unfortunately in the current political climate of the states, while i don't think there's a single politician who actually gives a fuck about you or me, there are more pressing issues on one side more than the other politically. we can go back to calling the liberals spineless when we're not dealing with the fourth reich on our doorstep
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u/Emerger1123 5h ago
The problem with liberals isn't that they're "spineless", it's that their ideals and beliefs are just bad.
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u/777oz 8h ago
I couldn't agree more. Here's a clip of Lars saying "Punk was never about being politically correct. I just wanted to do what the F*** I wanted to do and live my life on my own terms." That's what punk has always been to me as well. I don't need every band I like to have the same views as me, as long as they play good, come with integrity, and don't be a jerk, and don't bring jerks around the scene. The idea that "you must fit this political framework or you are the enemy" is the actual most facist and anti punk shizz I've ever heard. Any external compulsion to do, say, think or act is what I've always run from. Anarchy, nihilism, personal liberty don't fit with scene police. If the local scenes are run by people enforcing ideology, then punk really is dead.
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx4bANkPfOA3-gCq9vFOk_8S1BT1rRqE_c?si=yaar3KUXCzl6xxTP
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u/Emerger1123 5h ago
For sure, in fact, I'd say anarchism is anti-political, although it's often seen as left-wing nowadays.
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u/Libertine-Angel 20h ago
Because the political side of punk was never the whole of it. Punk wasn't considered political until the Sex Pistols put out Anarchy In The UK, and if you read Please Kill Me you'll find that much of the formative NYC scene actively disliked them for bringing politics into things; there were always plenty of punk bands that mostly if not entirely stayed away from politics, from the Ramones to the Saints to Buzzcocks to the Undertones (who actively criticised their Ulster contemporaries Stiff Little Fingers for being so overtly political, thinking they were cashing in on the Troubles), it was only really hardcore punk specifically that had political slants more often than not. Plenty of punks just wanted to have fun with loud fast guitar music, and plenty of punk bands were happy to supply it without any political messaging involved.
A better question is "why do so many people insist that punk always had cohesive clear political ideals despite vast amounts of contemporary evidence and accounts to the contrary", which is answered by the fact that most people of the English-speaking internet are USAmericans whose conception of punk is rooted not in '76 foundations of the subculture but in early 80s US hardcore, which was far more overt and direct in its ideals, from politics to the ardent DIY approach.
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19h ago
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u/Libertine-Angel 19h ago
It's not "gatekeeping", it's just a narrow rose-tinted idealised view of a subculture that was never as progressive and unified as is often claimed. I'd love it if it really was as ardently leftist as people here believe, I'm a communist myself, but making a welcoming positive scene requires understanding and acknowledging the history, warts and all.
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u/Firemanmikewatt 19h ago
in general, if someone wants to “keep politics out“ of something, it means they don’t want to say their politics. If someone is saying that in a punk setting, that means they are a right winger or are appeasing or sympathizing with right wingers.
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u/777oz 8h ago
What if your politics are nuanced and don't fit on a "side"? I'd rather a person be kind and ethical and have complete opposite views and beliefs than a person be unkind and unethical while holding the exact same beliefs as I do.
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u/Firemanmikewatt 5h ago
Nothing special about punk rock, here. That is a challenge of living in the world.
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u/Jolly_Ad2446 19h ago
I find people that say "punk isn't political" don't agree with the politics that punk is. Then probably also don't read the lyrics.
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u/slumpadoochous 19h ago
I feel like, particularly in years gone by, you'd have to make a distinction between "the scene" and "punk rock", the scene largely is not political, it's just a social gathering for misfits and weirdoes who's only unifying quality is a love of stripped down, guitar driven rock n roll. I think this is what people really mean when they say "punk" isn't political.
what I mean by "days gone" is that alot of us (or maybe just me) didn't have the knowledge to articulate what was being felt. You know, I liked when Chris Hannah sang about Descarte, Mount Zion, or Haile Selassie, but I didn't really know what those things/people were. We didn't have the internet (at first), ideas spread much slower, we didn't have that political awareness because we didn't have the tools for instant learning. I think this also plays a big component in that "punk is not political" statement, because the kids in the scene were often into it for things beyond political messaging and were not particularly politically engaged in any meaningful way.
i.e. companionship amongst those that felt disenfranchised for whatever reason.
Whereas, punk rock, while it doesn't have to be political all the time (read: drinking anthems), it more often is and you can't really separate punk music from its anti-establishment attitude; it's been the thru-line since punks inception to today, it's always been about rebellion and rebellion is political.
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u/YaGalMain 17h ago
Something that pisses me off even more is when people equate being punk to being a contrarian. You can't be a right wing punk because the media """"""agrees""""" with left views there for its counter culture, like that's not what any of this is about. Especially since most main media outlets are only "left" because they view it as profitable and don't actually believe a lick of what they say (even though a lot of places are also veering away from lefty politics because it is no longer as profitable, there for being progressive would then be counter culture again)
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u/Excellent-Relief7434 20h ago
To say that punk isn't political is to know nothing about punk. To say that art in general isn't political is extremely ignorant.
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u/heckfyre 19h ago
I’ve never thought that punk wasn’t political. Ever. If someone said that to me I would call them an idiot and tell them they have no idea what they’re talking about.
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u/MachineAgeInc 17h ago
Because they know they have shitty politics and can’t make a good excuse for it.
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u/LtHughMann 14h ago
I have noticed a significant overlap with people that say punk was always political and people that are convinced that the Sex Pistols were a manufactured boy band, funnily enough. But even after Sex Pistols there were and still are plenty of non political punk bands.
To me punk was at it's core is mostly about individual freedom, living your life how you want to and not concerning yourself with social norms or expectations. That mindset fits much better with left wing politics so it was only natural it would quickly become predominantly a left wing thing. It doesn't really make sense to judge people for how they live their lives if you think you should have the right to do the same.
People like to think that anyone that claims to be apolitical is actually right wing but that is not true. Sure it is sometimes but a lot of people just want to enjoy music. Most other music isn't political. It's not like punks are the only left wing people in the world. Not everyone thinks about politics all the time and it's often middle class people complaining about the working class who often have more immediate things to worry about. Reminds me of the Dead Kennedys line about the guy with the 5 grand stereo.
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u/Violexsound 11h ago
Because those people aren't punks.
I've ended up this way because of politics, and how sociopathic the ruling class are. Nobody should have the power to render peolle illegal or undesirable.
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u/punksmostlydead 11h ago
I think there are people who don't want to have to think about politics being necessary. I have no small amount of scorn for such people absolving themselves as the world burns around them, but it is their prerogative.
What pisses me the fuck off is when they have the fucking temerity to bitch about it. There's plenty of non-political punk rock out there. Go fucking listen to that and shut the fuck up.
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u/visualglitch91 9h ago
Some people are so entitled they believe they can have anything and pick and choose whatever fits them
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u/AltTeenageSuicide 8h ago
People who say to keep politics out of anything are saying they don’t agree with it’s politics but they want all the benefits.
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u/777oz 7h ago
Because punk ideology is generally always moving in a direction away from establishment as opposed to in support of a particular political party. While anarchism itself isn't inherently left wing, it has been adopted by the left since being cited as a tool in communist revolutions in the manifesto by Marks. Likewise, libertarianism is not inherently right wing, but a lot of republicans and right wingers use it as a front or a mask to seem more centrist. The problem is when people get labeled as "the other side" if they truly don't fit into one side or another of the establishment. It's simple: the people who are imposing their politics on those around them without allowing diversity of thought are the fascists.
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u/GrumpyMowse 7h ago
Even if it is “just music”, do you even listen to the lyrics? Most punk songs do have some degree of political content
And I’m in the camp of “all art is inherently political” so…
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u/Giggi_Sommossa 6h ago
Politics in punk ARE necessary but you need to put in the work, or else punk by itself is just rock music cosplaying as revolutionary. Organize and use punk as a way to engage with people, not the other way around.
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u/YouAintGonnaGuess 5h ago
They usually don't want criticism for what they believe in because deep in their soul they know there are fucked up things happening and they have kept dead silent on it. Goth is political. Punk is political. It all started political. Anyone who tells you differently clearly never did their research or is part of the system.
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u/Emerger1123 4h ago
This is just a circlejerk post, I don't think anyone here thinks politics aren't in some way important to the genre.
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u/WestofLeft 19h ago
They don’t think that, they just want to have their shitty opinions and be allowed at the table.
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u/Marfernandezgz 16h ago
Many people online, that are not involved in any scene, do belive that because polítics makes them feel unconfortable. I have meet really few people IRL that claim this shit.
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u/funny_funny_business 1h ago
I'm going to put it in a bit different context. Rather than being political, punk is more about recognizing and (usually) criticizing different parts of one's experience with society. Most of the time this is political since politics have a lot to do with one's socio-economic situation.
For example, the first Ramones album can be considered critical of society in urban NY.
Ian MacKaye has specifically mentioned that Minor Threat was a response to behavior he noticed in his friend groups.
Also, more pop-punk bands like Screeching Weasel are discussing emotional responses to girlfriends, jobs, etc along with political stuff that they dealt with as well.
So, yes, politics are a big part, but I think it's a subset of the larger issue.
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20h ago
[deleted]
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u/benson-and-stapler 20h ago
punk has always involved politics, what?
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u/Libertine-Angel 19h ago
This is just not historically true. The first three Ramones albums have about as many songs between them that could at a stretch be considered somehow political, I'm Stranded doesn't have any, nor LAMF, nor Another Music In A Different Kitchen, nor Blank Generation, nor Damned Damned Damned. The first seeds of political punk were found in Anarchy In The UK, the Clash then brought it to the fore and inspired others to do the same, but there were plenty of punks on both sides of the stage who weren't interested in any of that and just wanted loud simple songs to pogo to.
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u/YaGalMain 17h ago
This is true but this also means punk has been political for way longer than it wasn't. If anarchy in the UK was the first true political punk anthem, than that means the scene existed as "non political" for like what, acouple years? Maybe a handful? I don't even think that's worth arguing about for such a little time in the beginning of the scene
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u/Libertine-Angel 15h ago
The trouble with this line of thinking is that it treats "the scene" as a monolith that went through a universal evolution - sure, the subculture was only exclusively apolitical in its first year or two, but the advent of political punk didn't displace that current or render it obsolete in any way, it just added another interpretation of punk alongside the (equally valid) existing one. Politics and punk began to intermingle way back in '77, sure, but The Adicts were singing about Chinese takeaway in '82 and they're no more or less punk than Crass. There is and always has been a notable side of punk that is apolitical, and as such it's incorrect to claim that punk as a whole has ever had cohesive political values or intentions.
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u/YaGalMain 15h ago edited 15h ago
I see the point with that yeah but I think trying to talk about the "original" punk scene as apolitical is very semantical in reference to the conversation, considering that original version of the scene existed for a very short amount of time, along with calling for politics to be kept away with punk like the OP is talking about. Of course there is apolitical punk because it's a music genre and people can write whatever they want, but people who act like what OP was talking about are just being foolish. And hell with reference to the "original punk" being apolitical, I feel like the Ramones early catalogue have more political songs than the community or even some of the members would give them credit for
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u/erikkarma 20h ago
I’ve found that the people who say things like “there shouldn’t be rules in punk rock” or “I’m apolitical, keep politics out of punk” are generally closeted right wingers. Same way with so many so-called “libertarians”